Behind Closed Doors with TONIE
TONIE is a singer/songwriter, producer, and music director based in Brooklyn, NY. They will be performing and showcasing their music video in our upcoming show with Asian American International Film Festival, Meet Cute Music. Tickets are on sale now! In this interview, TONIE chats with Jasmine and Hailey about their transition into New York as well as their name, noonchi, and the power of uplifting through music.
In this blog series, we post in-depth interviews that take you behind closed doors (or #BCD) with independent artists, many of whom have performed or will perform in a Keepsake show.
Hailey:
We know that you're in New York now but you grew up in L.A. What brought you here to begin with and what influences from LA did you bring with you?
TONIE:
Yeah, I've wanted to live in New York since high school when I was here for a choir trip. There's just an energy here that I really like—this “don’t give a fuckness” that New Yorkers have. It's like you can be yourself because no one else really cares about what you're doing. New Yorkers are really kind to each other in that they respect other people’s choices. That's what drew me to the city and how I ended up here.
I went to school in Boston first because of a gut feeling, whatever that means. I knew that I would get to New York eventually and my way of doing that was when I was applying to be a software engineer. Looking back, I knew the company I was signing up for with this internship was kind of sketchy but I knew it would get me here because they had offices here. When I made the switch into music, it just made sense to stay here because New York is a great music city.
Hailey:
Do you feel like you have any L.A. left in you?
TONIE:
Yeah! Oh my God, so much. From a personality standpoint—and you can see these in a million ways, good and bad—in one way, L.A. people can be fake. In the other way, L.A. people can be good at putting on a really positive attitude about everything. I definitely have that chillness that L.A. people have and this attitude like, it’s gonna work. It’ll happen. Just go with the flow. I have that demeanor that I really appreciate about myself because I’m able to stay calm, even if I’m screaming inside.
In terms of my music, there’s still really something L.A. about it—the pop thing, the driving guitars, all the metaphors to driving on the 405. I think growing up in a car with the dream of becoming a big musician, you want your music to be played in the car. Especially the songs I’m working on right now, I think to myself, will this song hit really well through the radio speaker or an actual speaker? [Whereas] if you’re in New York, you just kind of listen with headphones and take your little earbuds with you all the time.
TONIE performing in the first show of the Show Yourself Residency at Rockwood Music Hall on May 2, 2022. Photo by Jeff Deng.
Jasmine:
That’s such a good observation of how differently we can consume music, and how it inspires the music we make.
We met you back at Music & Mic Nights, which is where a lot of our Keepsake community is from and where our artist community was built from. Back then, your artist name was Wind Meets West. Can you talk a little bit about that name and your transition out of it?
TONIE:
Yeah, one of the reasons why I switched was that I “discovered” my non-binaryness. It’s important to me that I don’t say “I came out” because I didn’t come out as nonbinary; I’ve always been. When I started letting that out, I felt like Wind Meets West didn’t fit anymore because it was an older name of an older time of how I used to be. Also, everyone would just introduce me as Tonie at shows anyway, so it didn’t really do anything. It didn’t make sense to me anymore.
“I’m just more myself. That’s why TONIE resonates with me. It’s just me and that’ll never go out of style. ”
Wind Meets West came from a drunken college night where I had a set of songs I wanted to release but I didn’t want to release it with my old high school name, so I wanted a new name. I got drunk with my friends and we started brainstorming. I was like, oh my last name is Nguyen, which sounds like Wind, and I’m from L.A. So Wind Meets West came about. I came up with that one night, had a photoshoot a week later, and released my first few songs.
Hailey:
That’s kind of amazing. I had not made the connection between Nguyen and Wind. I can see that happening on a drunken night.
TONIE:
That was one of the reasons I changed it. It was a college thing. I’m so much older and sophisticated now! No, I’m not. I’m just more myself. That’s why TONIE resonates with me. It’s just me and that’ll never go out of style.
Hailey:
I’m curious about the transition, because it wasn’t just your name that changed. It was also your branding. What was that whole transition like? Did you have a team behind you? What made you decide that this was the time to do it? How did you think through this process of becoming more yourself and having it make sense to your audience?
TONIE:
“When I imagine someone listening to my songs, I think of them dancing alone in their bedroom vibing out. It’s that dichotomy of, I’m a lonely person but I let it out in this way. ”
Yeah, I think I was starting to release some songs that I felt were all a similar vibe and all written in a similar time. There was that logistical transition that happened about a year ago, where I introduced some of these songs and said, this is my new sound. So the sound drove it. The non-binaryness drove it because I wanted to talk more openly about it. TONIE as a brand felt different. Wind Meets West felt like an ethereal, wistful brand, where it felt like everything was chill and floaty. The songs I want to write now are really close to me—they feel like we’re just in the room together but also rocking out. When I imagine someone listening to my songs, I think of them dancing alone in their bedroom vibing out. It’s that dichotomy of, I’m a lonely person but I let it out in this way. That’s what drives my fashion and how I want to represent my music, and the music itself.
Jasmine:
We knew you as a songwriter and performer first and later learned that you’re also an arranger and producer. How do you balance all those hats and how do they feed into each other?
TONIE:
That’s a good question. I always tell folks that producing was not my intention, but now it’s my main thing, more so than being a songwriter. When I switched to music as a career, I envisioned myself as a Julia Michaels kind of person, where I would write songs primarily and do a few sessions. But then the pandemic happened, and everything changed and everyone was inside. Then one of my artist friends asked me if I would produce her song because she liked my Wind Meets West sound at the time. I thought I might as well try because I’ve always thought about doing it. One thing led to another and I released that song with her. It was a Taylor Swift-y track. Through that, I realized this is actually where a lot of my process comes from and I retroactively applied it. Yes, I’m a songwriter and I’ve always cared about the lyrics and melody, but I’ve always liked starting with the chords and the vibe and the music itself first so I realized being a producer fits with where my musical tendencies are.
“I love the part that’s the scariest. When you’re a producer, the best and worst moment is when you have the initial idea for the artist’s song and then you present it to them, and they’re either going to love it or hate it.”
In terms of how they feed into each other, it’s always informing me of new ways to communicate different ideas and stories through music. Being a session musician and guitarist added onto that. I’m always learning so much about how other people write songs and compose. It’s a cool perspective to be in because on the one hand, I’ll go into a room—and I don’t like this language—and I’m “serving” someone else’s song, and I get to have that perspective and hear their ideas. I’ll throw in my own, but I’m not driving the creativity. It’s coming from your vision. I think that lets me learn so much more than if I were always the artist. That can lead to a lot of blocks sometimes. So I like learning from musicians and getting a lot of ideas, and I always have an idea bank and vocabulary building up in my brain. It’s super inspiring all the time.
In terms of how I balance it, I kind of do. Lots of calendar invites.
Hailey:
Calendar and coffee are definitely our best friends.
Jasmine:
Do you have a favorite part of the production process? Do you enjoy arranging or mixing more? Is there one you gravitate towards?
TONIE:
I love the part that’s the scariest. When you’re a producer, the best and worst moment is when you have the initial idea for the artist's song and then you present it to them, and they’re either going to love it or hate it. I love that moment. It just really encapsulates what music is all about. I’m putting my vulnerability and my heart and my entire life’s work into this—which I know is dramatic, but it’s the truth. Everything you’ve developed as a musician up to that point, you’re presenting it to them. And you’re trusting them to embrace it with love, or tell you that it doesn’t work, but with love. That’s my favorite part.
Hailey:
Everything with love.
TONIE:
Always! Music is love, as I say. I think that the composition part is the most fun. You get to turn off your brain and say yes to everything. I really love that because a lot of the music industry is no. You can’t do this, you can’t do that.
Hailey:
There’s a huge difference between being a session musician and being a music director, and I vividly remember going into the rehearsal for From Story to Song. We had already heard the production and arrangement for all the songs you worked on, which I loved. But when I walked into the rehearsal, I was blown away by how natural of a leader you seemed—which you may or may not have felt, but it came across that way. I’d just like to hear more about your experience with that, and being a session musician versus music director.
TONIE:
I would say the main difference is the perspective you have. And again, I don’t love this language because I find it a bit colonizing—but when I’m a session musician, I’m a “tool.” I’m there to make the music happen as a guitar player. And of course, I’ll offer ideas if the vibe is right. And every music director is different, so working through those social dynamics is key. You’re just playing music the best you can and focus on that one job.
“As a music director, you have to think very “big picture.” It’s the hardest job in the business because you have to be a great player, you have to conduct, you have to arrange, and you also have to be a great people person.”
As a music director, you have to think very “big picture.” It’s the hardest job in the business because you have to be a great player, you have to conduct, you have to arrange, and you also have to be a great people person. I’ve played and pseudo-directed [before], because I was in a lot of bands growing up: jazz and choir and rock bands and little combos that would play at rich people’s houses. I have been in a lot of different music groups. Because of that and being in those environments and having the privilege of good music education growing up, I could walk into a room and know exactly what each instrument could do. And I think that sets me apart as a music director. I’ve just been in a lot of other people’s shoes.
Because of that, my style is very empathetic. I know more of what people are going through, so I try to lead with that. I’m more of the woo-woo music director, where I’ll be like, Let’s talk about our feelings for a sec and let’s go around. I lead with questions like, What’s home to you? I like to make things a warmer environment because I think more important than the music is the convivial vibe between musicians. That’s what makes the best music. Any musician can read what’s on a page, but the page doesn’t tell you the story or emotion. To create that story and emotion, you have to create an environment where they can do that. Not to call people out, but if you are a music director who doesn’t create that environment first, then you tend to get the kind of session musicians that just do it for the money, which is fine, but I don’t think it makes the best kind of music.
Hailey:
That makes a lot of sense. I also come from an orchestra background, so I felt like I was just one robot in a giant machine all the time. As the violin player, there’s so many of us and unless you’re first chair, you’re not different from the rest, which is great. It’s an equalizer, but I didn’t have that experience with smaller groups where you have a music director like you. I just had conductors.
TONIE:
Yeah, and it’s a balance. Even for me, I think I lean too much towards that convivial vibe versus just getting stuff done. The goal is to balance both. My favorite word for this kind of thing is nunchi. It’s a Korean word. I love it. It’s like the art of seeing social cues. Every musician should have this, but especially music directors. They should be able to read the room and see what the band needs. For the band at From Story to Song, I knew all the musicians were great, so you can kind of shoot the shit. But if we were playing Berstein, then probably less time talking and more time playing.
Hailey:
Speaking of nunchi, another thing that seems like it comes naturally to you is your ability to socialize and network. You’ve been such a resource to Keepsake House. I imagine you’ve been that to your friends and other artists who ask you for help. People know you as someone who gives back to others. You talk about your L.A.-ness contributing to that and how being a music director feeds into that as well, but is that something you enjoy? Is that something you have to work hard at? How do you feel about your relationship with networking?
TONIE:
Networking is such a dirty word.
Hailey:
I don’t like the word either.
TONIE:
Yeah, no one likes it. But you can phrase it a different way—and this is the most L.A. thing I’ll say—and say instead, making friends who can get you places. That can seem underhanded—like oh, are you only friends with me so I can get further in my career? Yeah, that’s correct in some ways. But also, no, because that takes away the friend part. Critique it all you want, but in the creative industry we work with friends. The number one rule of being a musician is being a good hang and someone nice to be around. I always tell musicians this, especially those first transitioning into being a musician: it doesn’t matter if you feel like you’re not good enough. You don’t even need to be that good. You just need to be on time, nice, easy to talk to, take directions well, all the things that make being a good person. That shines through more. So in terms of my own personal networking, I try to lead with that. I try to make friends with everybody. It makes the music better. It makes my life better because people want to be around other nice people, so I want to work with other nice people and with people I want to be friends with, and often end up being friends with.
“As a music producer, I have so much power in uplifting people. The more successful I get, the more I get to uplift.”
For the resource thing, that connects back to my internal mission, especially as someone who is non-binary, Asian—all the labels, us marginalized folks. But especially as a music producer, I have so much power in uplifting people. The more successful I get, the more I get to uplift. That’s one of the reasons I want to be successful. I want a sustainable career, but also as that power to uplift grows exponentially, the more prolific you become. That’s always a part of my mission statement in the back of my head.
For example, I’m working on a musical theater project. I can choose who to hire based on my recommendations, so of course I’m going to push the people I know who deserve a chance who wouldn’t normally get it because that would make it a more diverse music theater session community. So I think that’s a big reason that I try to connect with everyone. The more we uplift each other, the more we can move forward together. Rising tide lifts all boats, as they say.
Jasmine:
I love that. It reminds me of what Spike Lee said at one of his talks that I went to—it’s like a tide, one person succeeds and everyone rises up. You or one of your friends gets successful, and you bring everyone else with you.
TONIE:
Yeah, a great example of that is the Show Yourself Residency. I had just met Alex Wong a few months prior and he got me this gig playing with my hero, MILCK. That’s just a matter of being friends. It goes a long way. I think people who are in this industry and don’t want to make friends, they don’t get very far. If they take themselves too seriously and are a hard-ass about everything—maybe that was the old way of doing it—but people these days don’t want to put off that energy. It’s not healthy for anybody.
Jasmine:
It’s cool you mentioned the residency because that’s actually related to our next question about your experience with the Show Yourself Residency. What was it like performing with MILCK and Alex?
TONIE:
It was interesting because I felt like I needed to work really hard to be on that stage. On my right with MILCK, it’s this person I’ve been listening to since college. Her songs got me through really traumatic experiences. She’s this successful bastion of empowerment. That’s someone I want to be. I want to empower someone like she does. On my left is Alex Wong, this super friendly guy who I met not long ago, but he inspires me with his producing work and his journey of finding himself and giving himself permission to do music. These two people on either side of me gave me a preview of what I could be if I work as hard and long as them, because they’ve been in this industry forever. It was really powerful. At the time and even now, I question, what is being an artist even for? Especially with our country's decline and the world experiencing all these global catastrophes, I think it can feel like being an artist is the smallest thing you can do. But these two people, being on that stage with them, it made me realize it’s not a small thing you can do. It’s an important function to be someone who inspires and empowers. Those people drive others to create change, hopefully in the right direction. That’s what that show really meant to me. Also, Rockwood Music Hall is fun and it was cool being there for the first time with them.
TONIE sitting between MILCK (left) and Alex Wong (right) for the Show Yourself Residency at Rockwood Music Hall in May 2022. Photo by Jeff Deng.
Hailey:
Yeah, that’s a great first time Rockwood experience. We’re still processing May because we had five shows with different artists. If it had been the same group of artists again and again, we could process more easily, but there were so many different vibes and personalities.
Looking back, your show was very special because it felt like the one where the artists connected with each other the most. Jasmine and I always talk about what we want Keepsake House to be, and it’s not just a space where artists and audiences are connecting, but where the artists are talking to each other. We find that so rare these days. That’s what a roundtable should be, where you are connecting through conversation or music or looks to each other on stage. If you watch that show again, you can see all of you looking and connecting with one another, for the three of you especially. I’m not sure that happened quite to that degree for the other shows. You definitely pulled that together, so by putting you in the middle, I’m so thankful that you were open to talking about your experiences. I’m sorry I put you on the spot [when I asked you at the show how it felt to sit beside them]!
TONIE:
[Laughs.] Yeah! I blame you, if anything!
Hailey:
You took it and ran with it, and you were like, yes, let’s be vulnerable together. That set the tone for the whole show.
Speaking of vulnerability, on your social media, you talk about mental health awareness, and it’s in your music, including your songs “daydreaming” and “if i took a pill.” Was it difficult to write and release that music and talk about it?
TONIE:
Everything I write about comes from intrusive thoughts. It can be joyous or depressing. There’s always an idea in the back of my head that I want to explore. So that’s how it always comes about. There was a lot about depression, especially because of the pandemic and us being stuck inside. There was a lot of internal facing reflection. On top of that, I was dealing with my depression while being alone, redefining my identity as an extrovert who loves connecting people and being out into the world. So to shut that off and put it into the size of a room in an apartment, there was nowhere to go but inward. I think a lot of musicians can relate.
“Everything I write about comes from intrusive thoughts. It can be joyous or depressing.”
In terms of my mission, my vehicle has always been to let other people feel less alone because that’s what the music I grew up with did. When I listen to Julien Baker—she has this song called “Everybody Does”—and she’s singing about how she feels like a piece of shit and how she’s going to ruin every relationship. That’s the kind of music I want to write. So when I wrote “daydreaming” and “if i took a pill”, that set of songs was the first time I let myself not be a perfect protagonist. I think in my earlier music, I always wanted to be perfect and didn’t want to come across a certain way. Later on and especially now, I’m getting even more into just letting myself be who I am, as I am, flaws and all. That includes someone who can’t get out of bed, or someone who forsakes relationships when they’re depressed and overworked. I think letting myself have that perspective in my writing leads to more powerful songs and leads to more songs that people can relate to. Everyone needs a space to feel their entire emotional being without the filter of worrying about what other people think.
In terms of releasing it, I learned a lot from my last song, “if i took a pill”, because when I went into it, I was so precious about it. I felt like I needed the song to do really well, or I’d just give up on being an artist. Now that it's out, I think it’s been moderately successful, but for me, I don’t really care about that. I care about the qualitative data. I see people’s playlists on Spotify and the names, and I can tell people use the song to cope with our world and our group depression and trauma. I think that’s more powerful than 10,000 streams. So that song taught me a lot about the power of my art. On top of that, anytime I play that song live and see the air of the room change, I get people afterward saying, that pill song, man. 'Men especially will come up to the stage and say, I never had the chance to express myself this way, and that song let me. So I just see the power of that song, so that keeps me going.
It’s hard because I want it to do well because I want that message to get farther, but it’s easy because the impact of it is so much more than if I play a love song. Love songs are great, but they don’t create that kind of reaction all the time, or any of the time actually. They’re just kind of fun.
Jasmine:
Speaking of “if i took a pill”, you are performing at our upcoming co-production with Asian American International Film Festival (AAIFF45), Meet Cute Music. We’ll be showcasing that music video and the filmmakers, Kimberly Te and Joshua Chee, will be up on stage with you to talk about the process of making that video. Is there anything you can tease about that show?
TONIE:
I’m so excited for that music video because I worked with my friends Kimberly and Josh. I met them in 2019 when I first moved to the city. It was a really special project, especially post-”pandemy.” To bring that song to them was super important because I needed a safe space to really talk about that. I feel like they had a great vision for the video and the look and aesthetic, so I was able to put my own narrative to it. In the past, I haven’t driven the vision. I didn’t have a feel or look. I didn’t style it. I just sort of asked around, what should we do? But for this particular video, I took the time to think about every single element. I’m really excited to showcase that because it’s truly my first collaboration in a music video, versus just letting the director do what they want with my song, which can go well sometimes.
In terms of songs I want to play, I might change my setlist because I’m writing a bunch of new songs and they’re really fucking good. Maybe I will. I have a song [out now] called “should i know,” so I’ll probably play that. It’s about toxic relationships. I’m also writing a song about how perfectionism tears you apart, so there might be some new songs at the show. We’ll see how I feel.
TONIE will be performing in the upcoming show, Meet Cute Music, at littlefield in Brooklyn on Tuesday, August 9. Tickets are available now!
Hailey:
And speaking of that, what do you have coming up? Is there a project in mind?
TONIE:
“should i know” was released last week with my friend kcdeeya, who is a Taiwanese singer/songwriter. I love her. That’s out. On August 5, I’m doing a show called Anti-Prom, which is a themed show and a costume party. I feel like everyone’s prom night kind of sucked, especially if you’re not a straight white person. I feel like it was a super heteronormative and stuffy and the traditions really sucked. So Anti-Prom is imagining, what if after prom, you’re like, fuck this, let’s have our own party. That’s the vibe. There are going to be four bands and it’s going to be a good time. There will be a DJ in the middle.
A pet peeve of mine for New York shows is that people leave in between bands. People don’t stay, and I think it’s partly on the artist’s side. We need to create an experience. So we have this show coming up. There will be giveaways. Asian Creative Network will be on it. It’ll be a fall partnership. I’m super excited for it. I’ve been wanting to play a show for a while, and this will be a really good one.
Jasmine:
At Keepsake House, we talk a lot about the magic in live shows and the communities they help create, almost like every live performance is itself a keepsake that you cherish from a whole house of life experiences. Tell us about your most memorable or fulfilling live performance, the one you would grab first in a fire.
TONIE:
There are so many.
Hailey:
A lot of people ask if it can be a show you’re in or one you attend, and we always say it’s up to your interpretation.
Jasmine:
It could be either.
Hailey:
Or both!
TONIE:
A cop out would be the residency show, but I’m not going to say that. Hmmm. This is not my favorite show that I’ve been to, but it reminds me of what Keepsake is trying to do.
My friend is the keyboardist for mxmtoon, who is a really great Asian American artist who is coming up. She’s writing more poppy stuff, which I’m really into. She played a show at Webster Hall, which isn’t a huge venue, but I was in the VIP up top. I could see the fans and how much they connected with her. They yelled out her real name, they sang along. There was one point in the set when they started singing the words when she forgot them. They were singing for her, which was ridiculous. That was a level of fandom that every artist should aspire to.
It relates to Keepsake House to me because she was like, I feel like I can be myself in this space as a bi woman because I feel so safe with you all. To be able to cultivate that environment on this grand of a level, with all that production and planning and logistics, which can sometimes make things get lost, was amazing. She’s so young too, like twenty-something. It’s really admirable and I hope every artist can make that experience happen: put your fans first, make their experience safe, and make them feel heard. Once that happens, all the success will follow.
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