Behind Closed Doors with Jen Kwok
Jen Kwok is a musical comedian who will be performing in our upcoming Keepsake show, Unmute Yourself. Tickets are on sale now! In this interview, Jen chats with Jay and Hailey about the process behind her many creative pursuits, seeking out projects that align with her passion for social justice, the inspiration behind her latest musical project “Songs for One,” and the one time she rapped about falafel.
In this semi-weekly blog series, we post in-depth interviews that take you behind closed doors (or #BCD) with independent artists, many of whom have performed or will perform in a Keepsake show.
Jay:
You are a person of many hats, Jen! Comedian, actress, musician -- is there one you “fell in love with” first? Is there one you’re gravitating towards recently?
Jen:
Yes, I do many different creative things! It took me a long time, but over the years, I’ve worked hard to integrate them. Now, I’m getting to a place where I really understand how they all interact and feed off each other, while also being different. I first started off with comedy because that’s just the personality I was born with and have. Humor is also an important coping mechanism, especially if you’re growing up as a person of color, so that was the way I presented a lot of my thoughts and made myself and others feel comfortable. And of course, I’d always been a musician. So it was really combining the music and comedy that was the key for me to be able to present myself most fully. And doing comedy fed into acting too. That in particular really taught me how to get to the truth, by using the emotions we all feel in an artistic way, or craft them in a way to tell a story.
“I’m most drawn to story, so for me, that can be comedy or drama. ”
Hailey:
I love that you mentioned how comedy prepared you for acting. Are you drawn to comedic roles, or would you like to explore dramatic roles more?
Jen:
I’m most drawn to story, so for me, that can be comedy or drama. The most unique skills I have might be in comedy but I also think that certain stories need to be told with more of a narrative or emotional intent, rather than with the humor behind it.
Hailey:
I love that answer. I think I would feel similar in your shoes.
How does your creative approach and process vary among acting, comedy and music, if at all?
Jen:
All three of them are about finding the truth through your specific lens, filter and experiences. In music, there is more of a veering towards “vibe” and that sort of energy. And with comedy, it’s more about whether or not it’s funny. And for acting, it’s asking, “what is the energy that’s serving the story?” You’re also acting with other people, so you’re bouncing off what they’re doing, more so than the other two. Even with music, when you’re collaborating with someone, the parts interact differently than if you’re acting a scene because that’s straight-up “real life” that you’re trying to portray.
Hailey:
One of your other hats that is listed in your bio descriptors is “dog lady.” As a fellow dog lady whose own social media bio always says “places, faces, and dogs,” can we chat dogs for a minute?
Jen:
Yes! I mean, I was born in the Year of the Dog…
Hailey:
Me too!
Jen:
It all starts from birth, so I guess it’s partially self-love. It gave me permission to love dogs or relate to them. I haven’t thought about this in so long but when I was little, I had this book of dog breeds that my parents bought me from Costco. I literally read it, like, every day. I would read it multiple times a day. So to this day, I know what any dog breed is.
I didn’t have a dog until middle school but every time I see a dog, I think they’re so cute and fun and full of life. My dog’s name growing up was Yogi, after Yogi Bear, and he was a black lab and chow mix. Once we got him, our lives definitely changed because we had this little creature whose job is just to have fun, run around, and eat. And our dog now, Lucy, who is a golden doodle, is also very sweet but definitely a diva--always throwing shade and has very specific high-maintenance needs. But she’s really cute and fluffy. She loves to run around in nature.
Hailey:
My family’s dog is a Jack Russell and he’s also a diva, as most terriers are. But he’s wild and hilarious. I think he’s either a comedian or magician at heart because the only tricks he likes to do are showing off. He won’t sit or lie down on command, but will jump when you ask because he thinks it’s funny. Or he’ll roll over and spin around--all of the fun tricks you laugh at.
Jen:
He should probably be in the circus ASAP.
Hailey:
Yeah, I love dogs and I always joke that Jay’s song “Dog Walker” was written about me because I was a professional dog walker in New York, that’s how I paid for grad school. It wasn’t written about me, but it should have been.
Jay:
It could’ve been, you never know.
Jen:
You should do a remix and in the back, it should be someone shouting [in a deep voice] “Hailey!”
Jay:
Oh my God, I should.
Jen:
I was also a dog walker at one point! I thought it was a great job if you love dogs and you need money.
Hailey:
I feel like everybody, especially if you work in entertainment or are trying to make it on your own somehow, has been a dog walker at least once.
Jay:
Wow, well I’m glad it resonates.
Hailey:
You’ve been a working actor/comedian/musician for a while now, and I think many of us who are not already in the entertainment industry don’t always understand that “working” does not necessarily mean that you’re famous and making millions. It doesn’t even guarantee that you can financially survive being full-time in the industry. Are you full-time now, have you been before? Can you tell us more about what that means for independent artists? And how has the pandemic affected your career in entertainment?
Jen:
I think that when you’re a performer or any sort of freelancer, you have to be ready for ups and downs, so literally everything has been my scenario. There was a period of time when I worked a job full-time and performed only at night. And there was a time when I was performing close to full time, 70 or 80%, and I was making money and spending my time doing it. For a good few years, I was touring on the weekends and on weekdays, I was doing my day job. At the time, I was a regular band leader for a TV show on MTV. So I would shoot that at night, work a job during the day, go to an audition after work, and I would shoot again at night. That was only really a few months, but it was exhausting. And then, there have been times when I really haven’t performed at all. For the last two years, I took time off to be pregnant and be a mom. So the pandemic really stepped in and added to that.
In terms of acting, my manager passed away right before my son was born, so I lost my main representation for legit acting. But I still had my commercial agent, who represents a lot of voiceovers, and one very unexpected thing that has come up is that there are a lot of animations getting green-lit that I was getting called for. And they are actually trying to have diversity by actually having Asian characters and casting Asian people for those roles...
Hailey:
Wow, groundbreaking.
Jen:
Mind-blowing, right? The sarcasm! It ended up that I’ve actually gotten quite a few voiceover auditions for animated TV shows. So thankfully, that’s something that has been working remotely. But for sure, things have been very different from when we were able to just go to the Lower East Side and play a show, or go in person to an audition.
Jay:
What was the worst set you’ve ever done as a comedian? Tell us that story!
Jen:
The worst set I’ve done was when I had to play an alumni frat party. It was a bunch of middle-aged dudes, away for the one weekend from their family and wives. They were just having a dude-fest and for whatever reason, they hired a female musical comedian to perform. So I went to my alma mater and showed up, and the only other woman in the room was the head of the alumni council, who made a speech. Then I had to go up and perform for these guys, who moments earlier had been taking shots out of an ice boob luge and getting on each others’ backs and doing their Greek letter chants. And of course, the worst part was being introduced as “our Asian goddess.” I’ve never had that happen before and I really hope that never happens again.
“[That experience] definitely made me understand the difference between a “money” gig and a “heart” gig”
It was a really awkward experience. It was several years ago so I feel like it was a different vibe back in that day, but it definitely made me understand the difference between a “money” gig and a “heart” gig, which is what I feel like you guys are trying to do here with Keepsake House. Sometimes, the money and heart align, but more often than not, they tend to be pretty separate. This was a situation where I felt like they meant well with wanting to include some sort of entertainment, but when I look back at that experience, it was definitely like trying to be a stripper for comedy.
Jay:
Oh man, that sounds like the worst.
Jen:
It was, but at least, if I can survive that, I can survive anything.
Jay:
It’ll probably be your worst gig for a while. Maybe forever.
Jen:
Yeah, I don’t think it’s going to get knocked off the pedestal anytime soon, in terms of misogyny, difficulty…
Jay:
It checks all the boxes. So actually, I saw you in Asian AF back in 2018, before we even connected digitally. I laughed so hard! What was that experience like?
Jen:
I feel like I started with comedy and performing way before there was a wide-swath of Asian performers. So even though there have been Asian-themed shows for a really long time, the difference now is that there are so many performers who are doing all different genres--sketch, improv, standup, music, everything. So a show like Asian AF, which is bi-coastal, is a celebration of us coming together as a community because in a lot of mainstream comedy shows, we’re not usually booked together. Normally, we have the one Asian or the one musical comic. So honestly, I don’t know if Dylan Adler and I would normally be on a show together.
So whenever I do shows with the Asian community, it feels very special because we come from a common background and we get the same jokes and we have the same struggles, so there’s already this shorthand that we can access immediately.
Jay:
You’ve been actively working for over a decade now! I remember you playing “Date an Asian” at Asian AF and that was released in 2009. How do you feel when you look back at your career at that point? What would you say to your younger self, if anything?
Jen:
“The ups and downs aren’t there to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be doing. The ups and downs are part of it.”
I think that I am very much still doing the same things that I always have been. I wrote “Date an Asian” because no one else was talking about that. I wrote it specifically because there was an Asian American female comic who on national television told a joke about how Asian men are unattractive. I feel like what I always try to do with my work is to say not only what I feel, but things no one else is talking about. I would tell my younger self to keep doing that. It’s not the easiest path, and it’s not going to get you the most fans or the most work. But in some ways, you’ve always known that this is what you were here to do. The ups and downs aren’t there to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be doing. The ups and downs are part of it.
Hailey:
I hadn’t seen the video when it was first released in 2009.
Jen:
You guys were like nine years old! I said the F-word like 20 times, so I’m glad you didn’t!
Hailey:
I was in high school, but true! I watched it the other day and I showed my boyfriend, who is Chinese-American, and this is something we’ve talked about a lot, thanks to him. I was looking at the comments and you commented on the Youtube video saying, “BTW, this isn’t an offensive song. That is not the point.” Can you tell us what made you want to or have to explain?
Jen:
For me, the hardest part of being an artist is dealing with the response, whether it’s a good response (like when people love it and say it’s amazing and you feel so good you have to not get your head blown) or you have people who take it the wrong way. And I think with many things you put out into the world, even in your personal conversations, many people’s responses have a lot to do with their own experiences, what they’ve gone through, and what they’ve not yet processed.
I had this one young man who wrote to me and said that he decided to go to music school because of artists like me. He wanted to sing my song for his senior recital. I never could have imagined that! This guy was also in Australia. Then there are people, Asian men specifically, who said, “I don’t need this advertising” or that I was being “condescending.” And so, this song is also for them and the things they have to wrestle with. And that’s exactly what I’m trying to talk about, only from the other side of it.
There is a lot of general male toxicity in society that caused some angry reactions. This song isn’t a movement to actually fuck Asian guys, it’s about saying something obvious: it’s okay to have sex with certain types of people even though, for some reason, society has said they are not sexually desirable. That’s the basis of what I’m trying to say. As with any type of satire, people can take it in so many types of ways. But always for me, the humor is in the delivery system to try and be palatable.
And also just in terms of representation, that video has 50 Asian guys looking hot dancing around me. Nobody was doing that at the time! They were all doing it individually in their own rooms! I just compiled them together.
Jay:
Yeah, that was amazing.
Hailey:
Yeah, and also, the representation of different types of Asian men -- I loved that there were all different types of Asian Americans in the video itself.
You released an EP recently called “Songs for One,” and I love the story behind how that came about. In a way, it relates very much to the intimacy and connection to music that Keepsake House hopes to create. Can you tell us a little bit more about the inspiration behind it and the process of making it?
Jen:
“How do we go through this feeling of fear or disconnection from reality and feeling othered and be able to physically, energetically, molecularly remember that we have so many things in common as people?”
I started working on “Songs for One” in 2016, and 2016 was this period of time where I feel like America was just starting to reckon with a lot of things. There was a week when several Black men were killed. And we’re fresh from Black Lives Matter protests recently--George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery--but this goes back, and then it goes back even before that. Then the shooting at Pulse nightclub happened. And so, you had these hate crimes occurring and we’re all on social media, having this 24 hour news cycle. We also have Donald Trump running for president. So much was happening. I think during that time, the way we used social media really shifted. People were expressing themselves through sharing news, writing really long emotional tomes, and starting to numb themselves because it was just too much.
So I asked myself: what is the antidote to this? And it made sense that the antidote was connection. How do we go through this feeling of fear or disconnection from reality and feeling othered and be able to physically, energetically, molecularly remember that we have so many things in common as people? For me, that’s always been through music.
At the time, I actually was on hiatus from performing for a while. But my friend Leah Nanako Winkler put on this play and she’s one of those creative people that my other friend Sara Benincasa calls a “soul group:” the type of creative who, even when you aren’t actively working on a project together, something about them causes inspiration and reaction in you and vice versa. So I was inspired for the first time in a while to perform and I think I was coming out of a deep depression so this makes sense. Her work is so inspiring that I wanted to perform again. All this terrible stuff was happening and her art had moved me to raise my voice again.
“I wanted to use my skill as a performer and more importantly, my desire and heart, to help people in some sort of way. ”
So I was walking from 11th Ave in Manhattan and by the time I got to Lexington, I just kept asking myself what I see myself doing. I didn’t see myself getting on stage and doing a comedy show. I didn’t see me making a web-series. I saw myself singing to one person at a time. After that, I started doing more research, as there were artists that had done this very intimate performance before. So how do I use music to do this? How do I provide a performance with structure? Those questions inspired the performance to be combined with visual elements.
My sister (Donna Kwok) is a really talented artist, and she did these watercolor tarot cards to combine with the music, and that was my way of making a safe space, an energetic vessel. I think so many people had difficulty processing all these terrible things going on in the world because it didn’t feel safe to do that. I wanted to use my skill as a performer and more importantly, my desire and heart, to help people in some sort of way.
So I wrote the songs and started inviting people to come into different settings--music studio, back room of a comedy show, therapist’s office. I sang to them one on one. Some of the music would be improvised. I would try to tailor the musical experience to the person. Something I didn’t foresee happening was that some people would give these sessions as gifts to other people, so for one session, I sang “Happy Birthday.”
The project was really the biggest gift I’ve ever received as a performer. It still surprises me to this day how much people brought themselves. As an audience, anytime you give someone your attention, and we especially know this now because of the way the internet works, it’s a sacred thing. It’s a connection where you’re willingly allowing things to happen and flow. To have people show up as themselves and not be afraid, even if it was just this once, it was really amazing to witness that.
Hailey:
Yeah, wow. You talked about the audience being a gift and being vulnerable and unafraid. But also, were you afraid? I can hardly imagine just singing to one person. I know it’s a stranger but that almost sounds scarier to me than performing in front of a big group.
Jen:
It’s very vulnerable, but people who came to this were self-selected. That’s another thing that has shifted my idea of why, when, and who I perform for. I think a lot of performers, myself included, are always asking, “what are these people going to think?” But your critic is probably not your fan if they hate on you. These people wanted to show up, and that made me want to show up for them. That actually made it less scary for me.
Also, on a practical level, there was someone who manned the door to make sure I was physically safe. There was physical space between me and the listener. Before they came in, I gave them options like having their eyes open or closed, they can sit or lie down. And if at any point they felt uncomfortable, I told them to let me know. The performance was about creating a situation where we could let the vulnerability happen.
In between each person, I would take a twenty minute break to meditate. So if I sang for someone for twenty minutes, I would reground myself for another twenty. Especially in our culture, it’s all about “more more more.” Now, there are so many things happening about mindfulness and wellness that are being countered to that. This experience is a microcosm where immediately after you give so much of yourself, you have to spend an equal amount of time to take yourself back.
Hailey:
I’m glad you were able to realize that at the time, not something you realized later or after the fact. That’s something I always struggle with.
“If there’s anyone out there who is reading, who is a woman or nonbinary person of color, who is afraid to put a value on their own work, sit down and examine that for yourself and represent yourself the way you deserve to be represented.”
I know the idea of Songs for One came directly out of the social and political climate in the US in 2016, meant to be a safe, intimate, even meditative antidote to the divisiveness and the violence directed at queer people and people of color. You also specifically worked with women animators like your sister to create the videos used in that project. What is your relationship with social justice and how do you choose work opportunities that align with your values?
Jen:
I think that for me, social justice has always been a part of my work, for better or for worse. I started at a time when race wasn’t always talked about openly in this way, or people didn’t even embrace their own culture in a way because we were so conditioned to fit this racist system that we all exist in. Now, I feel like we have the opportunity to realign ourselves in our own set of values rather than in our very broken system that has always preferred certain genders or races. So I think that moving towards “wokeness” is something we all have been struggling with over time.
When I look back at “Date an Asian” or some other songs that I wrote, I wouldn’t write those now. I still think they’re relevant unfortunately, but I wouldn’t write it now, or I’d write something else about the topic. But I think to me, that shows growth. The reason why I chose to work specifically with women filmmakers and animators for “Songs of One” is because in my previous projects, I had mostly worked with white, cisgender, straight men. They were the ones who were able to go to school for filmmaking, given opportunities, and put themselves out there as being hireable for entertainment jobs. In the time between my first project and my most recent project, a lot more people from different backgrounds have been able to access the tools (technology being more democratic now than the traditional ways of making entertainment). So I really challenged myself to seek out people who may not be able to get certain jobs. If I want people to hire me as a woman of color, I want to hire women of color as well.
And actually, one important thing I do want to say (and this is a little off topic but it’s just so important to me) is when I’ve spoken to men vs. women about hiring them, the men always have a set rate. They always have boundaries. They always have a very specific process or way of communicating. Women either don’t have a rate for themselves, or they say “whatever your budget is,” or they say yes to the first number I throw out. They’re not negotiating.
I’ve even had one person who very bravely told me that she never responded to my question about what she wanted to get paid for a job because she didn’t value herself enough to say how much she wanted to get paid, and so, she didn’t get the job at all. And I don’t think that story is the only story like that out there. And that’s all I’m gonna say! If there’s anyone out there who is reading, who is a woman or nonbinary person of color, who is afraid to put a value on their own work, sit down and examine that for yourself and represent yourself the way you deserve to be represented. If you don’t, no one else will. Period. Mic out!
One of the other recent projects I did was I composed the theme song for the Sunstorm podcast, which is hosted by Alicia Garza and Ai-Jen Poo and about women of color activism. It’s produced by the National Domestic Workers Alliance. So being able to lend my musical perspective to a project like that is the type of project I seek and want to support. They’re lifting up people who may not have a voice and hiring a woman of color to use her voice and create this message. More and more, it’s what I look for with the people that I work with. Keepsake House as well!
Jay:
Aw, thank you. That’s amazing. Is there a project you’re most proud of to date?
Jen:
Wow, that’s hard to say. Ah, that’s really hard! I think I’m most proud of “Songs for One” because of the intention of it and the fact that there were so many ways to put that intention out into the world. When I first performed a one on one, I didn’t know that I would eventually record the songs or work with animators as a more produced project. The EP is the most musically ambitious I’ve ever been. Moving away from acoustic production and using the whole musical landscape that I come from--Debussy and Massive Attack and mixed influences coming together.
Hailey:
Cool, sounds like one of those perfect moments where so many of your past experiences all combine to make this project feel so right and so authentic. Speaking of your musical influences, who would you say are some of your musical influences? Who are you loving right now?
Jen:
The old school comedy influences for me are Victor Borge, which most people don’t know but he used to be on PBS all the time when I was a kid. He does classical music comedy. Growing up, it was Margaret Cho because she was a balls-out Asian American woman. And for musical comedy, Reggie Watts; I love his stream of consciousness. Musically, I’m the biggest and will always be the biggest Mariah Carey fan. She’s an incredible vocalist and also has an incredible vocabulary, and having the permission to say whatever you want to say and be smart is actually kind of mind blowing, to have that as an influence.
“That’s what comedians have always done: shine the light on things that are dark and difficult, bring together what’s hard with stuff that makes you laugh, and say it’s okay to hold space for both.”
Jay:
What can audiences expect from your set in the upcoming Keepsake House show?
Jen:
They can expect singing, piano, and looking at hard things through a comedic lens. At this point in time, we can’t ignore what’s going on in the outside world and ourselves. But there’s a difference between just saying “I’m so depressed” and not knowing what to do about it versus saying “I’m so depressed and here’s what’s funny about it.” That’s what comedians have always done: shine the light on things that are dark and difficult, bring together what’s hard with stuff that makes you laugh, and say it’s okay to hold space for both.
*Editor’s Note: Jen has humbly announced that she will donate double her portion of proceeds from Unmute Yourself to Stop AAPI Hate.
Jen will perform in Keepsake’s first show, “Unmute Yourself,” airing live on Zoom Sunday, March 28. Buy tickets now!
Poster by Jeff Deng.
Jay:
At Keepsake House, we talk a lot about the magic in live shows and the communities they help create, almost like every live performance is itself a keepsake that you cherish from a whole house of life experiences. Tell us about your most memorable or fulfilling live performance, the one you would grab first in a fire.
Jen:
I don’t know why this is coming to my mind but several years ago, I was in this organization called Kollaboration New York. It was kind of run as a competition. I didn’t see it as a competition but some people did. There was this moment on stage when we all got together and we sang “Empire State of Mind” by Alicia Keys. It was kind of this “We are the World” moment of the Asian community. It felt really good to do this all together, impromptu, unrehearsed. They were passing the mic around for people to freestyle. I don’t really rap but I can rap, and I absolutely spit the fiercest eight bars of my life. The crowd went wild because I didn’t expect it from myself nor did they expect it from me. I rapped about falafel out of nowhere! And those spontaneous moments where you discover yourself and other people is just absolutely priceless. Also, who doesn’t love falafel?
Jay:
I want to hear this!
Jen:
I’m sure the video exists somewhere! Now, looking back, I think I rhymed awful with falafel.
Jay:
Oh, nice.
Hailey:
Literally the only thing that makes sense.
Follow Jen:
Website | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | Spotify | Youtube